gooood团队采访世界各地的有趣创意人，欢迎您的推荐和建议。
第4期为您奉上的是Ben van Berkel

gooood team interviews creative from all over the world. Your recommendations and suggestions are welcomed!
gooood Interview NO.4 introduces Ben van Berkel

采访人：王耀华 Yaohua Wang

1.

对你来说什么是建筑?
For you what is Architecture?

建筑高于一切其他必须品，同时在社会中可以产生新的意义。虽然在触发变化这个过程中,建筑扮演一个背景的角色, 建筑仍然可以打破现有的规则, 并产生新的操作标准。他们可以重塑, 因此, 在确保这个专业保持和社会相关的同时, 产生社会效应. 我们建造的东西, 是设计好要去对文化结构和科学结构产生影响, 所以我们一直在和人, 和大众打交道. 建筑的真正根本在于我们可以对公共有影响的建设.

Architecture is above all else essential and can generate new relevance within society. Even though architecture plays a somewhat background role in causing change, architects can break existing rules and generate new criterion within which to operate. They can reinvent and therefore ensure that the profession not only remains relevant, but also generates a public effect. What we build is designed to effect cultural constructs and scientific constructs, so we are always dealing with people, with the public. Architecture’s real essence lies in the fact that we can make public constructs.

2.

关于工具，在1987年，你从AA毕业的时候，当时你做设计的时候使用什么样的工具？数字化工具在当时流行么？
About tools: in 1987, when you graduated from the AA, what kind of design tools were you using back then? Was digital tools popular at the time?

我们当时还没有数字化工具。在建筑专业应用计算机是在1990年之后才开始出现的事情，也大概是我自己的公司刚开始的时候。不过，当我在AA的时候，我对新的工具和技巧非常的着迷。我记得当时我所有的草图和drawing都在透明纸上；我对正反两面做了使用，通过这样来给drawing带来意外的深度。我同时也利用了打开的剖面，作为另外一种观察空间功能组织的方式。我当时从艺术家身上学了很多这样的实验性技巧，也很着迷于创造视觉效果的不同技巧。

We were not using digital tools yet at that time. The use of the computer within the profession only came to pass in the early 1990’s, when we started up our practice. But whilst at the AA I was always fascinated by new techniques. I remember that back then I made all my sketches and paintings on film; drawing and colouring on both sides in order to create unexpected depths in the drawings. I also made unfolded sections, as another way of seeing the organisation of the projects. I learned a lot about this kind of experimentation from artists at the time and was fascinated by different ways of visualising ideas and creating unexpected imaginations.

3.

在你事业的早期，你是如何使用数字工具的？同时这些数字化工具是如何影响你的设计的？
How were you using digital tools in the early stages of your practice and how did the tools affect your design in that period?

在90年代，我们刚开始实验使用数字化工具的时候，还没有太多别的人在使用这些3D软件和技术。比如说在1991年的Erasmus Bridge这个项目里，我们开发了一个软件可以计算结构在空间中所有的坐标点。通过开发这个软件，我们能够将电脑分析的结果传递到施工方的手中，然后他们可以进一步的计算结构中的力学元素，同时也可以根据我们的数据对钢材进行切割工作。早期数字工具利用的另外一个例子是莫比乌斯住宅。虽然在那个时候，先进的3D工具还没有真正普及, 我们就已经对他们控制几何体的能力表现出了极大的兴趣。同时我们的兴趣从来没有局限在几何形式，和技术本身上。我们的兴趣更多的在于如何创造出更多的空间潜能，同时这些空间如何建构。在这之前，复杂空间是非常难以在短时间内控制的。这些当时的新技术，允许我们更快的，和更勇敢的进行我们的空间组织实验。我同时认识到的是, 我们如何能通过引入新的技术来刺激生产和制造的方式，使他们更加的紧凑和文化上更具竞争力。不过就像我经常在说的，这些工具在他们变成技巧之前，是一个人与人之间的关系。我们一直相信技术的合作，对于设计中不同元素, 不同流程的探讨，而不是单单为彼此提供信息。这意味着，合作在软和硬的方面同时对设计的过程产生影响。

In the 1990’s were we experimenting with 3D modelling techniques, at a time in fact when nobody was really working with 3D computational techniques. For instance for the Erasmus bridge in 1991 we developed a programme which could calculate all the co-ordination points of the structure in space. By developing this programme, we were able to pass on the computer analysis of the project to the contractors – in this case a steel manufacturer – and they were then able to recalculate the forces involved, as well as to use the basic information provided by our studio for cutting the steel. Another example of very early use of computational techniques was in the Mobius House. Even though advanced 3D programmes were not yet available at the time, we were fascinated with the potential of these emerging techniques and their ability to control geometry. However our interest was never solely focussed on the geometry, nor on the computational techniques themselves. Our interest lay largely in the possibility to carry out spatial experiments and to see how the resulting structures could actually be constructed. Prior to this it was extremely difficult to control complex spaces and it involved a great deal of time. These new techniques meant we could work at greater speed and be more daring in our experiments with spatial organisational principlesWhat I also noticed was how you can stimulate the production industry by introducing new techniques and design tools. They can then become far more compact in their process of production and culturally competitive. But as we have often said, the technique we work with is social before it becomes technological. We have always believed in technological collaborations where we not only provide each other with hard information, but where we also discuss the various elements of the design. This means that both the hard and the soft sides of the collaboration influence the creative process.

▼Erasmus Bridge

4.

你同不同意有些设计只有在数字技术下才能实现？
Would you say that certain designs were only possible with digital tools?

是的，原因很简单，就是时间的限制和资金的限制。如果我们有3年去设计和建造Erasmus Bridge，同时有不限制的资金，那么我们应该可以在没有数字技术的辅助下完成它。同样的道理可以应用在大部分我们的项目中。但是事实上是, 类似于圣家族大教堂这样的永远没完和没有限制的项目在当代实在是太少了。

Yes, simply because of the time limits involved and the need to operate within a particular budget. If we had had 3 years to build the Erasmus Bridge and an unlimited budget, then perhaps we could have done it without digital tools. The same can be said of most of the work we had done since. But of course, never ending projects like the Sagrada Familia are few and far between these days!

5.

我感觉在数字化时代的早期，数字工具迫使我们去思考设计的哲学。当下我们更关注于如何建造。你对这个问题的看法是什么？
I feel that in the early digital age, digital tools freed our thought and design philosophy. Currently there is also more and more focus on digital tools within construction. What do you think about this?

我觉得这不是我们应该使用数字化工具的主要方式。这些工具刺激建筑师的想象力，同时给了建筑师对于功能和几何空间的洞察。他们提供了使用复杂数学几何体去设计和建造我们的结构的可能性。数字工具同时还可以产生更加整体的对于设计所包含的信息的思考，对于我来说，这才是最有意思的。这个复杂的过程，并不单单只包括数字化工具本身，同时还包括了如何使用你的知识来指导这些工具，来产生更聪明和更有想象力的设计。但是这些知识同时也需要被约束，细致的整理和小心的编辑，这要求在设计中要有一种很具体的思维方式。一个彻底的如何理解和使用数字工具来做设计，不幸的是我们当下教育中还缺失的，但应该有这样的理解才对。

This is not the primary way that digital tools need to be used. These tools stimulate the imagination of the architect also and give real insights into the programme and the geometry of their designs. They offer possibilities to discover new complex mathematical models with which to create our structures. Digital techniques can also generate far more holistic ways to combine information in design and this to me is the most interesting application of these tools.This integrated approach does not simply involve the digital alone however; of particular importance is also how you guide the design process through knowledge and how you can therefore create more intelligent and imaginative design. But this knowledge also needs to be disciplined, very well organised and carefully edited and this requires a very particular mind-set within design. A thorough understanding of how to design buildings with the digital in the fullest sense is also unfortunately not part of how we educate architects today, but it should be.

▼MH

▼Rubber Mat

6.

我发现几何形式在你的早期作品中比较粗旷和自由，在你最近的作品中，这些几何形式变的更加的精细和控制。不知道你对这点的想法是什么？
I found that the geometry in your early works was sometimes raw and free-form. In your recent work the geometry is becoming more refined and controlled. What’s your feeling about this?

我们的作品确实变的越来越纪律和渗透着对于信息的分析，特别是我们不再在一个设计里引入大量的野心和目标。取而代之的是集中表现几个主要的细节。意外的是这使得我们的设计变的更加的丰富，同时使它们更加清晰。

Our work has indeed become a little more disciplined and more filtered through the guiding of information, especially as we no longer introduce large numbers of ambitions into the projects, but instead concentrate on maybe 3 or 4 large details. On the one hand this makes the work more complex, oddly enough, but it also makes it more reductive and very clear.

▼Mercedes Benz Museum

7.

在UNstudio发展的过程中，有没有什么困难的时期，你又是如果度过这些困难时期的？
Was there any difficult time at your office and how did you go through that difficult time?

所有的事务所都经历过困难的时期，不过幸运的是，我们的困难时期从来不是因为没有足够的项目，或是因为经济的状况。我们的困难时期事实上和我们对于自身作品和理论的边界的挑战有更多的关系。在当下我们同样面对一个变化的时期，因为我们现在在从一个基于network的公司向基于知识的公司转变的过程中。这个自我完善的过程, 需要耗非常多的时间和精力，但是我相信这是建筑师的另一个责任，特别是在我们面对环境的新挑战时。

Every office goes through difficult periods from time to time, but luckily for us this was never connected to not having enough work, or the effects of a bad economy etc. Our tougher times were in fact more connected to the refinement of our theories and changing the boundaries within our own philosophies and the work we were producing. At the moment we are also in a time of change, as we are now in the process of changing from a network based practice to a knowledge-based practice. It takes a lot of energy, focus and time to keep on improving yourself, but I believe this to be part of the responsibility of the architect, especially when we are faced with new changes in our environment.

后记 By 王耀华 Yaohua Wang
杜月笙说的头等人有本事没脾气，应该说的就是本。

先说说本的脾气，本是一个能倾听的人。我见过太多的建筑师，小有成就，就已经脾气不小，或者说没有了耐心。本不一样，以他的位置，很多话他是没必要慢慢听的，虽然有些话明明听一半就知道你想说什么，他还是会很耐心的听完再发表意见。和本聊天，没有压迫感。

再说说本的本事，本的本事在于他思维的开放，这点和他耐心的脾气也是有关系的。本的建筑生涯出发于一个非常学术的观点–对于流线和空间的连通性的着迷，这些在他早期的书中也可以清晰的体会到。不过这半年和Ben的相处，发现他对于建筑学之外的知识的渴求。本对于当代社会经济和知识结构的创新，有着很长期的关注和参与。比如说在UNstudio，他一直在努力改进建筑事务所的工作和思维方式，现在在UNstudio，他创立了四个知识平台，ASP，IOP，SPP，IMP。ASP代表建筑可持续性平台；IOP代表空间创新组织平台，SPP代表智能参数平台，IMP代表创新材料平台。这四个平台是他把UNstudio实践中所收获的知识，进行组织和归类，然后尝试用知识平台这个概念来改变事务所的操作方式。他希望在UNstudio里，员工不再是用以往的项目团队来组织，而是用他们的知识专长来组织，同时员工可以在不同的平台之间切换。本希望用这样的方式，打破之前大建筑事务所中的人事组织框架，激发不同的创新潜力。

和本聊天时，他提到了UNstudio是如何面对2008年经济危机的，当时，几乎所有的事务所都在裁员，可是UNstudio却反其道而行，在中国开设了第一个分部。逆流而上，使得UNstudio在经济危机时，不但没有任何裁员，反而开始进入了中国市场。这也算是本的本事的另一个佐证吧。

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